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An interview by Keith Montesano
Author: Keith Montesano (HeldLikeSound)
Date: Unknown


On Superbowl Sunday I took a little time to call Allen Epley from Shiner, one of Kansas City's most talked about bands right now. Having numerous 7"s and two full lengths out, they've made quite a name for themselves nationwide.They recently did a 2 week tour with Hum and are planning to tour some more soon. Keep an eye out for them and maybe you'll see them with a record on your favorite label soon... you never know, right?

HLS - First off, do you have any cool hobbies or anything interesting you'd like to share about yourself?

Allen - Uh, shit. Um, I don't know. I just work on my house a lot. My girl and me bought a house. I just put a lot of time into that, shit like that.

HLS - So that's about it?

A - Oh, no, I don't know. I can't think of any? Lemme think. No we don't have any weird hobbies necessarily.

HLS - So, how long have you been playing the guitar?

A - Well, I started playing acoustic when I was like 15 or 16, but I didn't start playing electric guitar till the beginning of this band actually, I played bass in another band right before this.

HLS - What band was that?

A - It was called The Industry. We were a local band around here. We were local heroes. And the drummer from that band Jeff Brown started this band with me and Shawn Sherrill, the bass player from Splay. Shawn didn't know how to play and I didn't either. I mean I knew how to play acoustic guitar but that's different from playing electric guitar. Then I finally heard what I wanted to sound like and then the guitarist of my band of the time, Industry, we all dissolved. But I started hearing Dwayne Trauer from Season to Risk and the Molly guys and the guys from Germbox, and other bands around here. And we needed a guitarist and so no one could do it and I knew what to do so I just kinda faked it for a while till I got better at it. I'm still faking it. That's what it's all about, I couldn't play a solo to save my life (laughs).

HLS - Are you in any side projects now?

A - Yeah, actually I am. I have a side project with that guy Jeff Brown. He's playing guitar and I'm playing drums.

HLS - Cool, what band is that? You have a name yet?

A - Well, we got 6 songs. But we haven't really thought about it actually. We haven't even considered a name.

HLS - What band was Jeff Brown in again?

A - He was in The Industry, and he was in the first incarnation of Shiner, which was called, unfortunately? Orchid for 4 shows. About 4 months, we wrote a lot of stuff. I mean, I had all these songs and was just teaching Shawn the shit verbatim you know? Like "Play this" kinda stuff. We played a few shows with Jeff and he had some other shit going on with another band and all this other stuff at the time. So Tim had said to somebody else that he might be interested in doing this shit and I was like "Christ, if I could talk to Tim Dow into playing for this it'd be great," but Tim kinda had a weird reputation in town as being hard to deal with. I think it was blown out of proportion, I mean we were all hard to deal with. But I think was blown out of proportion because he got a bad rap 'cause he decided to leave Season to Risk right as they were getting signed. 'Cause he was in Season to Risk and it wasn't what he wanted to do. That was about year before we formed. So he decided to get out right as they got their deal you know. Before he got obligated? or obliterated.

HLS - What bands do you like and what bands are you influenced by, yourself?

A - I think I steal from everything I listen to. As far was what I actually write for Shiner is probably based off of Slint, Bitch Magnet, old Smashing Pumpkins, Swervedriver, Failure, Hum. I know a lot of those people in those bands so it's like I just take from things that really turn me on. I have other styles of writing necessarily that aren't necessarily conducive to Shiner's thing. But that I would say has kinda been based off of that. It's kinda been based off of doing something different with guitar chords and different rhythm. And also Soundgarden, Soundgarden's also? Like when I wrote a riff, I'll hear it in a 5 or 6 or whatever and then we'll transfer it and Tim'll put something amazing to it. But it's never been about like just being difficult or mathy just for the sake of being mathy. It's always just kinda like what's been there in my head and I think it kinda gets overdone.

HLS - Who thought of the name Shiner and does it have any importance?

A - Shawn Sherill originally thought about it. We tossed it around originally with Jeff Brown. Shawn and I really liked it but Jeff Brown at the time didn't like it. So we all decided on Orchid at the time. As soon as we got Tim we all tossed names around and voted it in. As far as its significance, it probably has nothing to do with anything, besides a tag.

HLS - Just tossing around names basically?

A - Yeah totally. And names only matter if they're bad. It's just like, you got the coolest fucking band in the world but if you're Hipsnake and the Rattlesnakes, you're bumming. But if you have a good name and you have a good band nobody cares about you're name really. Or you're a bad band with a good name, they really don't care about your name.

HLS - What's your favorite Shiner song and why?

A - That's difficult. I think my favorite Shiner song from Splay is "Bended Knee," because I think it's some of the most mature writing that's done on there. And it kinda was a little preview into what was to come. To have thicker and more complex songs and the songs are great on it. And on Lula Divinia I think my favorite song is? it's hard to say. I think "Cake" is a really powerful song on there, which is why it was the follow up. Favorites are hard because I gotta love them all because I wrote them all or began them all you know? That's kinda hard. My favorite sleeper track is "Shelf Life" and that's one that not a lot of people mention, but some people do. But I've always kinda liked it, I think it's a really cool song.

HLS - What are some of your favorite bands that have come out of Kansas City, recently or in the past?

A - Um.... Giant's Chair.

HLS - Boys Life?

A - Yeah definitely, we were all friends around the same time. Us, Giant's Chair, Boys Life, Molly McGuire and Season to Risk were accused of clique rock for several years. And it was that clique rock that kinda defined the Kansas City sound. Yeah, Giant's Chair. Uncrush is really great. Panel Donor.

HLS - Oh, I know I've heard that name before.

A - Yeah, Panel Donor has Jeremy Sidener from Zoom. I was gonna get to Zoom?

HLS - Oh, I love Zoom.

A - Actually, now that I mentioned Zoom, that's where a lot of my mind was when I was writing a lot of stuff for Splay. I mean I don't know if you'd hear that or not but it's kinda where my mind was. And Panel Donor is out of that Zoom sound kind of but it's got Brandon Aiken and Jeremy Sidener and I just think they really do some great stuff.

HLS - What's the scene like there now?

A - It's just bands breaking up all the time and bands forming all the time. Like the Get Up Kids are going strong right now and the Gadjits are fuckin' huge.

HLS - Whoa! Aren't they a ska band?

A - Yeah! I mean the shit going on, a friend of mine nailed it on the head about a year ago. He said, "The first band to get huge from Kansas is not any band that we know right now." And I was like "You're crazy, dude. It's gotta be Shiner!" (laughs) And he was like "We don't know about them or they haven't formed yet." I think that's probably accurate. I think the Get Up Kids are probably gonna do some shit like that you know?

HLS - Yeah, definitely.

A - I don't know. I mean, there's bands forming all the time and like Molly McGuire, I'm not sure what they future is because they're in the middle of some restructuring. Season to Risk is still moving strong. They've just recorded a new record for I think Thick Records, which is Blue Meanies and Judge Nothing and shit like that.

HLS - Do you think Lula Divinia is a different representation of Shiner since Paul is now in the band rather than Shawn being in the band on Splay?

A - Oh, absolutely. It made us 85% better. I think Splay's a good record but we hold the candle to Lula Divinia I think. I mean all the songwriting is done where I'm the seed writer. And I'll walk in with several sections and then we'll arrange it together. And we'll find a groove and everyone will find their parts. But you can see right there the difference between having somebody else who has input or somebody who doesn't have input, where I was writing the parts for Shawn. Not only was I writing my guitar parts, but I was writing the bass parts too and it was hard to separate myself. I mean, I was a bass player so it was a little easier at that time to come up with a little bass line, counter it and shit and I could do that. But in order to make a band for real it had to be Paul. I can't think of anybody else around this town, or the country that I'd want to play with as a bass player more than Paul. And just his sound and the lines he chooses and plus that he's an engineer really helps. And even Tim is more than just his drumming shit because he's an amazing drummer, prodigious to say the least. But he's also like really actually kind of a musician (laughs), which usually doesn't go hand in hand with drummers. They're mathematicians and usually drummers handle the books and they keep the time. But Tim really works. His interpretation of a song changes kind of when he hears the vocals on it. When he listens to a song on the radio or whatever he listens to guitar lines and vocals. He doesn't listen to drums. He only listens to drums on stuff like Zeppelin or Terry Bozzio shit. First and foremost he is a drummer but he's also a musician which really helps I think in helping to form songs and arrangements and shit.

HLS - So what does Lula Divinia mean anyway?

A - Lula Divinia is a woman who owned a house right behind my house. The house I live in presently that I work on all the time. I was over there rooting for doors and pieces of molding and floors and all kinds of shit, in her house, you know kinda stripping it a little bit. Then I found all these letters and other shit, coats and ashtrays and all kinds of good stuff. And her name was Lula Divinia and I was just so struck by her name. Not only is her name Lula, but Divinia. I was just awe struck by it.

HLS - The name's definitely weird, but it does have a nice ring to it.

A - It really does. Actually, her backyard was so overgrown that I grew some of my own plants out in her yard (laughs). It was so overgrown I was able to grow it in the middle of everything. It just had to do with her you know? I mean we chose the name, there's nothing specifically about her really, but the song "Lula" I kinda made an extended metaphor of exploring a house or kind of exploring a person. It was an analogy between exploring a house and exploring a person.

HLS - Who writes the lyrics and do they have certain significance to them?

A - I do and, yeah, I always try and assign some significance to it. I think for a while, maybe since the advent of alt rock, I think sometimes there's not enough significance put on lyrics. And even in my shit I don't think I put enough time into it and some of them are a little too obscure for people or too vague. And I don't wanna be too vague or too obscure. I think it's got to be more than just a cool riff or a cool melody. I try and deal with things that are like human nature. Not just love songs or floating unrelated images, but some shit that'll have some sort of meaning to some people, even if it's just like read in a poetic way. A lot of the shit's just like extended metaphors. Like "Christ Size Shoes," it's kinda of a metaphor like having shoes that are always too small and you can't find the right size and they're breaking your toes and shit you know, but it also had to do with like never finding happiness in your life in certain places. You know, you can never find the right thing, whatever makes you happy. Do you know what I'm saying?

HLS - Yeah

A - Does that make sense?

HLS - Yeah, definitely.

A - And it's so you're always kinda searching for the right size but it's never there. Kind of "the grass is always greener" thing.

HLS - Cool.

A - Yeah, maybe that'll give you some insight.

HLS - Yeah, it does. OK, this is bothering me, I have to ask it. What the hell is up with the dial tone in "Pinned?" It's really cool. How did it come about?

A - We were in CRC in Chicago. Everyone else was gone, it was just me and Chris Shepherd, the guy who engineered the record, recorded it. Paul mixed it and did some additional recording, but as far as engineering it was Chris Shepherd and he'd worked on Pumpkins and KMFDM and all this other shit. He and I were in there and we thought about doing a phone spoken part over that you know? All of a sudden I picked the phone up and I had the dial tone to my ear and I was like "Fuck! Same key, kick ass!"

HLS - That's awesome.

A - Yeah, so he was like "I can run this through the PA" and we thought it was amazing, we were all getting chills and shit. We were just amazed that the chord of the dial tone worked so well with the chord in the song. So it was really kind of a fluke but we felt it worked well.

HLS - Oh yeah, definitely, I agree. How'd you guys get hooked up with Sub Pop to do that new 7"?

A - We have a friend there named CeCe who works in publicity. She had worked at Southern Records a few years before which distributes Touch and Go and DeSoto and things like that. She worked there and passed it on to Jonathan Poneman, who is the CEO there. I'm sure you've heard the name. And he fuckin' loved it, said he freaked actually. He called us up and we had a meeting with him there. So I don't know exactly what's gonna go on beyond that but it may be something, who knows? We just now got management so we might be able to work something out, we're gonna I think pursue something a little larger.

HLS - So you're still with DeSoto now?

A - We're with HitIt!! The record was gonna be a DeSoto and HitIt! joint release, but it didn't all go as planned and so DeSoto needed to just let HitIt! do it, and so that's what happened.

HLS - So are you guys working on a record now?

A - Always. Always writing. We've got 5 songs recorded already, demo's that are really great and then probably 7 others that are written. It's amazing 'cause we never have our homework done. Like going into the studio for Lula Divinia, there's 11 songs, we had 9 written by a week before we were going in. Then the song "Lula" was an old riff I had that the guys didn't take to at first. I said well "what about this?" And they said, "what's that?" And I said "Well I played this for you motherfuckers 5 months ago!" So they liked it and we formed "Lula" and we formed "Third Year Scratch" and recorded those songs completely with no idea of what the vocals were gonna do. So the day before I was supposed to do the vocals on those 2 songs we waited till the very last to do those. And I went in and I had a little 4 track at a friend's house and kinda just wrote them both in about 3 hours, melody lines and lyrics. It was kind of a pressure cooker situation. Pretty sweet, situationist of course.

HLS - How did the whole idea for the video come about?

A - It was all Ohio Girl.

HLS - Really?

A - Yep. We got a really good deal on it. The video itself probably would've cost 40 grand.

HLS - Damn, that much?!

A - Yeah, videos cost so much, it's fucked up. It's like you got catering, camera and somebody's running the make up and props and somebody's gotta click the thingy and run the DAT machine. Even for that video there were 25 people there.

HLS - Wow.

A - Yeah, even for a low scale video like that and you think it is. But I think it looks really great.

HLS - Yeah, it does. I saw the Real Audio on the Shiner page. Do you do the page?

A - I just update it actually. There's a friend of mine who's a genius. The guy at Exodus Interactive. He's just a buddy of mine; he's like 21. And he just is a fucking genius with this shit and I have a little section where I can update little things, but for the most part he does it all. I can write little things in there, but that's about it. I really can't take any credit for the page. But the whole ideas of the video, the concept, the treatment were written by Andy Mueller and Craig Champion for Ohio Girl. And it was a fucking long ass day. They built this set the week before and all this shit, these tanks with these eggbeaters on it. Somebody has to make that, even little tiny things take money. So the whole thing didn't cost more than like 3 or 4 grand I think because of the volunteer help.

HLS - Oh wow. That saved a lot.

A - Right, otherwise if you had to pay wages like normal union wages and shit, it would've been insane. But the whole treatment for the video and everything was their idea. I probably would've done something less immediately literal as far as shoes spinning and stuff although ultimately I think it turned out badass and I love it.

HLS - There's a tour coming up soon right, with Hum?

A - Fuck yeah! It's kind of a short tour, about 2 and a half weeks, but it's gonna be great. They're old buddies of ours. I guess they came down about 4 years ago and did 3 shows with us around here and we came up there and did a bunch of shows into Champaign and as a result we do really well in Champaign now. We made a lot of friends through them. Do you know Castor?

HLS - Oh, I love Castor, they're one of my favorite bands

A - Lovecup?

HLS - Yeah, I like them a lot too.

A - That was the first show we ever played there was with Lovecup and it was so badass! It was at a place called Trinos, which is not there anymore. Yeah, I mean I remember playing with Hum to nobody in Columbia. We played to each other in Columbia in a place called the Basement, which was right around the corner from Blue Note in Colombia, Missouri. They had just recorded their album so they had all these hits lying around. That was the first time I heard "Stars" and all the shit from Astronaut and everything I mean all 3 of us were just blown away, that was about it and the bar. Oh, there was a table of frat dickheads, that's right. They couldn't even turn around. There were 3 dickheads and their girlfriends playing quarters or something on a fucking table when we're in the bar. And they couldn't find it in their souls to turn around. I do remember that specifically.

HLS - You should've said something to them.

A - Ah, what are you gonna say? I don't even care about their vote anyway. I guarantee you they were going "She thinks she missed the train to mars?" you know, about a year later. Little did they know that they were sitting in the fucking bar with them.

HLS - Speaking of bars, do you like to play at the 21+ places or all age places and why?

A - Well, they're two different scenarios. I like both of those things, but with bars there's the liquor thing and booze is either the detractor or the helper in the situation, you know what I mean?

HLS - Yeah.

A - I mean, I've played so many fucking all ages where I wish they were outside sneaking some booze or smoking a joint or whatever and they would come in with a little lighter attitude. Like kids that are standing there and can barely find it within themselves to nod their head or bob their head or stand up front or clap or yell or something, it's almost too tame. Then you get in bar situations sometimes where everyone's too busy trying to score or got a beer in their hand to clap and all they can do is go "woo!" if that. So there's good situations in each. I think the best situation is a place that will have 18+ and also serve liquor. And then obviously I'll do tons of all ages shows and I've done 'em all. Like say on the Jawbox tour we did a couple years ago out west and then back through, we did about 6 weeks with them. Everyone of the shows had to be all ages and they stuck to their ethics. I think some of that was a mistake 'cause we ended up? I think in not all instances was it a mistake but a lot of it we could've done some really great shows, like say in Seattle, we could've done a great show. Instead of doing it at the Miller Community Center, which was like 3 gymnasiums, 3 like basketball courts stacked on one another in this huge place that could've held literally 12,000 people.

HLS - Holy shit.

A - Yeah, there were 300 people there and it looked like there were about 30 scattered. So, they could've done it at Rock Candy or? what's the other one there? Moe's or Joe's or wherever. They could've done it at those places but they felt they had a certain all ages thing they needed to stay with. We don't necessarily have the same all ages crowd that Jawbox did and we kinda have been hesitant to call ourselves indie. I think that indie carries a larger connotation that I don't necessarily think we can apply to ourselves. We have no problem in making money, or in playing big stages or using lights. I mean we're at the point where we wanna give a show to people, you know? There's been so many fucking bands that stare at their shoes and come up and wear their t-shirts and they have a few chords and a few songs and they get soft then they get really loud then they get soft again and we can't afford to do it anymore like that. It's got to be something larger, which is why I don't feel like just mumbling some cool phrases or something. I feel like even if it's just to myself, the lyrics have to make a certain sense and carry something. I just wanna do a larger show, you know? When Crash Worship comes to town, everybody knows about it.

HLS - Who's that?

A - You know, Crash Worship? It's like, shit, I don't even know man. They got a few core people that do some shit, like maybe 5 or 6 people. They come in and they set up in some loft somewhere or out in the woods or some shit. And everybody knows about this Crash Worship show and you can go do a bunch of drugs or hallucinogenics and shit and go pound on drums and there's like all this performance art. It's like this larger deal. I mean, obviously we don't wanna be Crash Worship but I'll tell you what everybody knows when Crash Worship's been in town, you know what I'm saying? (laughs)

HLS - (laughs) Yeah.

A - You know, they leave an impression. I feel that for Shiner's sake we just need to do something a little larger, more involved.

HLS - What bands have you toured with in the past?

A - Toured with is probably different from actually having played several shows. I mean we've done a lot of shows with the Grifters. We've played with Jawbox, Shudder to Think, Sunny Day Real Estate, Girls Against Boys, Helmet, we played with Soul Coughing.

HLS - Awesome. I love Soul Coughing.

A - I love Soul Coughing so much. We played with Everclear several times. As we were younger when we didn't really have a draw but we were just kind of a known good band, you get a lot of those shows that would help expose you. When a big band comes to town you get those shows but as we were getting larger here in town in and the surrounding area it's not really worth us to go get 100$ for opening for the Jesus Lizard. You know what I mean though? Like where as if you're a young good band it's worth every cent of it for exposure.

HLS - Yeah, totally.

A - And you're like "Fuck, yeah, Jesus Lizard, sign us up!" but now it's like "Jesus Lizard wants you to play this show but we can only pay you 75$." We probably wouldn't take that or do that because we can make $600 or whatever here in town by ourselves and we already have the exposure and the bar can also use our big night to spread the draw out a little bit. We played with a million different bands it's crazy. SNFU we've played with. We've played with Codeine and? a lot of other good bands.

HLS - So what are the future plans and recording plans for Shiner?

A - Well, we just picked up a management company. They're the same folks who do Ben Folds Five.

HLS - Yeah, I like those guys a lot.

A - Yeah, I think they're a really great band. I don't think Ben Folds knows about us but this girl kinda pursued us a little bit so we're talking to them. I'm sure we're gonna work out some deal with a label so that we can get some money and I mean just mainly existence money. The kinda shit that allows you to tour and allows you to pay your bills while you're on tour. Certainly not?

HLS - So you're flourishing in it.

A - Yeah, exactly. It's mainly just like we'll be able to pay off the van. Maybe not have to stay in so many people's home although we do like that to a large extent. It's also really nice to have just a motel. That's kinda something we're gonna try and get into. Like having some tour support and shit like that 'cause so often you get with people who don't realize that we've been out for 3 or 4 weeks and are bound and determined to make that night with those guys in Wisconsin the most partying night we've ever had. But we're just recording these demos and kinda like gonna do this tour. Gonna do another tour out East in late March, early April for about 2 weeks. I'm sure we'll stop at a lot of the Shiner hotbeds and try not to get robbed. We've had a little spree of that recently.

HLS - Seriously?

A - Yeah.

HLS - While on the road?

A - Yeah. Well is started actually, a few tours ago, while we were out in LA. We were on Pointsetta and Melrose like right over there, I don't know if you've ever been to LA?

HLS - No, I haven't.

A - ?But it's in kind of a nice area. A really nice area, it's in like Hollywood or whatever. And in broad daylight, our front door was open and somebody made out with a lot of Shiner shit I'll tell you that. On a nice suburban street, well not suburban but you know very nice residential street. And our door was open; the screen door was just there. All we had to do was stand up and look outside. And these people had ripped off the locks, pulled everything out, sorted through what they needed. They took Tim's snare drum and floor tom. They took my new Schechter guitar, they took a hundred disc player, all my pedals and cords.

HLS - What fucking assholes.

A - Oh yeah, well they're professional thieves. They know how to look for the band vans. Lots of bands go to LA and you know how to look for a band van. "Oh, Missouri plates? Christ, those guys are gonna get robbed." So they just followed us around till they found us I guess. Then the past 2 tours have been kinda weird 'cause we were in Chicago, which is definitely our second home. At times we contemplated on just moving to Chicago, but we love Kansas City a lot. But anyway, when we were there they just like busted out the windows and stole hubcaps and shit and they stole luggage last time right outside the Empty Bottle, bunch of cash and shit like that.

HLS - Jesus?

A - Yeah, cut the tour short. We were out touring with The Dismemberment Plan. You know those guys?

HLS - Yeah, I do.

A - They're a great band. It was the night they had a show with Smart Went Crazy at the Fireside. We were playing the empty bottle with New Wet Kojak which is a Girls Against Boys side project. Our shit was outside and while we were just sound checking and shit they busted the windows, stole all of our luggage and a bunch of cash.

HLS - That's fucked up.

A - Yeah, it was fucked up! And it was a Sunday night. We had to cut the next three days of the tour off just to go home and get like underwear and like toothbrushes and shit.

HLS - Wow.

A - Yeah, but I could almost swear we're getting used to it 'cause we didn't take it as hard. Know what I mean?

HLS - Yeah, so that was like the second run in then?

A - No, that was the third.

HLS - The third?

A - Oh, yeah. There was LA and then 2 Chicago instances on subsequent tours. Breaks your spirit a little bit but?

HLS- Gotta go on.

A - Right...

HLS - Would you like give any contact information?

A - Just the website I guess. There's the homepage, the official Shiner homepage which is www.kansascitylife.com/shiner. And then the DeSoto guys are also maintaining our site, like a little side site with information and little updates I write and shit. I think we're gonna try and plan on doing a 7" on DeSoto, maybe a split with Burning Airlines. 'Cause I really just fucking love those guys and it'll be good for us and good for them too I think. But they got a lot of shit going on, they certainly aren't dependent on us. In the meantime I think we're just gonna try and get some sort of deal hooked up. Where we can tour adequately and get good distribution and maybe go to Europe a couple times and shit like that. Cause there's a lot of bands that go to Europe.

HLS - Oh I know, I think Braid's there now. Or someplace in the world?

A - Probably, I don't doubt it. Those guys are gonna own the world.

HLS - I know, they tour so damn much.

A - Yeah, they do tour a lot. But I guess that's probably what we're gonna try and do. Just to keep working, recording, and writing. I guarantee there will be a Shiner product by late either late '98 or early '99.

HLS - Awesome. So is it gonna be a full length probably?

A - Oh yeah. Fuck yeah. Probably with a couple 7"s smattered out. I know the Sub Pop 7", I saw it on their website, shit is up. And they had like 3000 made and you can order it and I know they shipped some out to some stores that ordered it.

HLS - Yeah, I have a zine on the Internet actually and I got a copy for it to review.

A - Right on.

HLS - I just need to get some better speakers for the record player. Then I can blast that shit.

A - I hear you. My needle just gets fucked up all the time 'cause I got so many old albums.

HLS - So, is there anything you'd like to close out the interview with?

A - Uhh? (laughs), not really. What do you say? Do drugs, drink too much (laughs kiddingly). Don't impeach Clinton! All that shit's blown out of proportion.

HLS - I agree.

A - But we can't have an impeachment right now, we need someone to keep things going. Fuck it! That's what we'll end it up with.


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